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Wetabix View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Wetabix Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: SailGP Final Aarus
    Posted: 23 Aug 21 at 6:37am
So at what point did 'Japan' (aka Australia 3) not have room to round either mark in a seamanlike manner? I'm asking because I would like to know.
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Lukepiewalker View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Lukepiewalker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Aug 21 at 3:00pm
I think SailGP have modified rules. Even so still not clear to me how that was a penalty.

'Similarly to boundaries, marks have a circle zone around them of 45m in diameter with the mark at its center.

When boats overlap as they enter the mark zone, the boat on the inside must be given room to go around the mark. The boat on the outside must allow the inside boat to take the turn as they wish.

When boats are not overlapped, the boat that entered the zone first has the right to go around the mark.'



Edited by Lukepiewalker - 23 Aug 21 at 3:00pm
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Post Options Post Options   Quote MikeBz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Aug 21 at 4:21pm
So from the above the SailGP rules allowed Japan to tack in the zone and expect GB to keep clear, regardless of whether Japan had completed her tack or not.  I guess the question is would there have been a collision if Japan had started to tack before GB had fully crossed her.  Presumably Japan feigned the start of a tack and then aborted to make it look as though there would (might) have been a collision.  All a bit smelly, but hey this is all about hubris and money.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Wetabix Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Aug 21 at 6:06pm
There was one replay taken from above (drone?) as Ben approached on stbd with 'Japan' coming in on port with an entitlement to mark room at the left hand gate. Ben was heading high enough for Japan to tack inside him  and could easily have luffed a bit higher if necessary, which it wouldn't have been because 'Japan' would have lost about 15kph in the tack and Ben would have been clear ahead in a couple of seconds. 'Japan' had no right to a high speed wide foiling tack as far as I know unless they have modified the rules (in real life Rule 18 does not apply on a beat to windward but it must do in this competition). Sail GP is said to have modelled itself on F1 which it seems to have done very well - complete with incomprehensible steward's decisions!
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Contender443 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Aug 21 at 7:36pm
So how does it with 2 marks and 2 circles?

Japan were outside of the circle around the mark they eventually went round. So not entitled to mark room on that buoy. GBR were on starboard outside of both mark limits.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Aug 21 at 8:39pm
I think this is the trouble if you go altering the rules. You get odd situations.
The question is whether the text quoted above, which is off the Sail GP website, is the full text of the rules, or just a simplification for the public. I suspect the latter. Unless we know the exact text of the rules in place for the event its difficult to have an opinion.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote MikeBz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Aug 21 at 7:56am
Originally posted by Contender443

So how does it with 2 marks and 2 circles?

Japan were outside of the circle around the mark they eventually went round. So not entitled to mark room on that buoy. GBR were on starboard outside of both mark limits.


Under SailGP rules they were entitled to room to tack around the same mark as GBR, the umpires must have decided that GBR didn't give them sufficient room to do that.

Mozzy's take on it here:  https://youtu.be/ybXFvnnyUpM


Edited by MikeBz - 24 Aug 21 at 7:56am
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Wetabix Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Aug 21 at 8:42am
If  the boat entitled to mark room really is allowed to make the turn 'in any way it chooses', including not turning immediately, then that more or less compels the other boat to go so wide that the other boat cannot luff up to it at any time it chooses to do so, including sailing outside the circle. If that is the Rule then the umpires may have been right. Suppose Ben had dialled down in order to give ;Japan an opportunity to tack and they hadn't tacked but had dialled down as well, resulting in a crash? It would be nice to see their interpretation immediately after the race as they did with the French protest against Hannah Mills at the Olympics. FWIIW in a hundred years of motor racing no one has been able to define when a car taking 'the racing line' is allowed to push a car overtaking on the inside onto the grass and when the car doing the overtaking is allowed a teeny weeny slide towards the defender which takes his rear wheel off.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Aug 21 at 8:59am
Originally posted by Wetabix

FWIIW in a hundred years of motor racing no one has been able to define

My understanding is that part of the problem for motor racing is that they don't have a single set of rules for all events, but instead different events tend to have their own interpretations and ethos which aren't very well codified. The result is a lot more gray area and a lot more confusion, but on the other hand imagine Touring car racing or even banger racing with no contact rules like sailing has for every event.
Because we have a single set of rules for every event and because things tend to happen more slowly its been possible for the rules to be developed to be a lot more precise and with fewer grey areas and no possibility of no fault collisions, but on the other hand that inevitably results in a degree of complexity that not everyone bothers to learn.
I don't think I'd want to swap that for on water banger racing though... I like it being a non contact sport.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote ohFFsake Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Aug 21 at 9:36am
The rules are here:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1F-dHKbK0i-N7kgvmXuBaUWgosNdgAOsT/view

It takes a bit of unravelling, as the definition of "mark room" includes the word "room" in italics which implies that it incorporates that definition too.
"Room" brings with it an obligation to manoeuvre "promptly and in a seamanlike manner"

Rule 18.3 obliges a boat that needs to tack at a mark to do so asap, but it doesn't apply at gate marks or to boats not overlapped.

So I would argue that the boat entitled to mark room cannot sail as far as she wants, but is obliged to sail her proper course promptly and in a seamanlike manner.


But it's also worth noting that the rules are effectively just a guide for the umpires, as rule 62 states there shall be no redress.
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