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downwind ROW boat obstruction rules

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    Posted: 04 Aug 22 at 12:35pm
3 boats going downwind with asymmetric spinnakers. Yellow+Blue on port overlapped and Green gybing to starboard and now on a collision course with Yellow + Blue

As I see it Green is an obstruction to Yellow and Blue after it has gybed. Yellow has 2 options, gybe in front or luff and sail behind Green. Yellow is entitled to choose which side as per 19.2A and Blue is entitled to pass in front of Green if Yellow chooses to do so 19.2B 


How would it work if only Blue was on the collision course and Yellow was not. Is Green still an obstruction to both?

If Yellow and Blue were on a collision course with Green, could Yellow hold its ground until Blue bails out behind Green and then gybe or would they risk a protest by breaking 19.2B? I would presume Yellow could just argue they left Blue room had they have held their course a little longer could have gybed in front of Green too

I've just realised the diagram shows Blue overlapping Yellow after Green has gybed. This is wrong. The overlap was established before the gybe 




Edited by ClubRacer - 04 Aug 22 at 12:41pm
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Aug 22 at 1:28pm
As is often the case, go to the definitions. In this case an obstruction is defined as "An object that a boat could not pass without changing course substantially, **IF** she were sailing directly towards it and one of her hull lengths from it"
My emphasis on the if. Its still an obstruction if you are not on a collision course with it. Does that make things simpler?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote ClubRacer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Aug 22 at 2:50pm
I would say that both Yellow and  Blue are sailing directly towards it and are within a hull length of Green. 

Hypothetically then if Green were to pass over a hull length back from Yellow if they both held their course and Blue and Yellow are overlapped and Green will hit Blue. Does Yellow still have to give room to Blue to pass in front if Yellow chooses to do so? 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Aug 22 at 4:36pm
This is the point. The green boat is an obstruction for both boats. The definition doesn't say "without changing course when she is sailing directly towards it". It says "IF she WERE". If we're racing in Hayling Bay France and the Isle of Wight are obstructions. Its just that no action is needed to give room at them. So 19.2b applies. But outside doesn't have to do anything to give inside room to pass France or the IOW.



Edited by JimC - 05 Aug 22 at 6:27am
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Aug 22 at 12:04am
Originally posted by JimC

But outside doesn't have to do anything to give inside room to pass France or the IOW.


Is that because of Brexit?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Aug 22 at 12:30am
Originally posted by ClubRacer

As I see it Green is an obstruction to Yellow and Blue after it has gybed.

Yes.
Originally posted by ClubRacer

Yellow has 2 options, gybe in front or luff and sail behind Green. Yellow is entitled to choose which side as per 19.2A and Blue is entitled to pass in front of Green if Yellow chooses to do so 19.2B

Yes, although, I think if Y gybes, she's going to end up parallel and overlapped to windward of G, with B in the gas, possibly CASTN of Y. If B gets her nose into the gap and becomes overlapped on Y, to windward of her, then Y is now windward boat, required to keep clear of [G and] B, and required to give B room to pass between Y and G.
Originally posted by ClubRacer

How would it work if only Blue was on the collision course and Yellow was not. Is Green still an obstruction to both?

As long as G is on stbd and B and Y are on port, G is the right of way baot an an obstruction to B and Y.

Whether a Y is required to give B room depends on whether rule 19 applies at all. Rule 19 applies between boats 'at' an obstruction. I think 'at' means 'when an inside boat needs an outside boat to give her room to pass between her and the obstruction'.

Whether boats are on a 'collision course' doesn't really matter, the issue is whether B needs Y to give her room to pass between Y and G. If B is on a 'collision course' with G and B needs space between Y and G to pass between them, then Y must give B that room.

Originally posted by ClubRacer

If Yellow and Blue were on a collision course with Green, could Yellow hold its ground until Blue bails out behind Green and then gybe or would they risk a protest by infringing 19.2B?

Well, it sounds like you are describing the very thing that rule 19 is there to prevent: Y 'scraping' B off against the obstruction.

When Y and B are 'at' G, the obstruction, Y is required to give B, room, that is the space she needs, acting promply and in a seamanlike way, to pass between Y and B. so the test is going to be, how much space was there between Y and G when Y gybed away.

If Y's intention was as you describe, there probably won't be enough space, and Y will break rule 19.

And boats don't 'infringe' rules. They 'break' them.

Originally posted by ClubRacer

I would presume Yellow could just argue they left Blue room had they have held their course a little longer

Well, that's going to depend on what the evidence proves about the actual amount of space, but Y is on very shaky ground.



Edited by Brass - 05 Aug 22 at 12:32am
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Aug 22 at 6:28am
Originally posted by Brass

Originally posted by JimC

But outside doesn't have to do anything to give inside room to pass France or the IOW.


Is that because of Brexit?

Depends who you ask...
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Grumpycat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Aug 22 at 7:05am
Actually it depends if you believe in facts or unicorns . LOL

And I am not saying which side is which. Best to leave that can of worms un opened  Smile
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Post Options Post Options   Quote ClubRacer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Aug 22 at 10:00am
I had changed infringed to break within a few minutes of posting the original, unsure how you managed to quote the pre-edit

Thanks for the answers they are exactly what I was after.

New question: are any rules broken if yellow holds its course and green misses blue by a hair (less than a hull length) without having to change course?

Same question again but blue and yellow are passing an anchored cruise liner which blue misses by a hair



Edited by ClubRacer - 05 Aug 22 at 10:22am
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Aug 22 at 12:06pm
Originally posted by ClubRacer

I had changed infringed to break within a few minutes of posting the original, unsure how you managed to quote the pre-edit

'Cos I copied it from the email version that I got, to get rid of the horrible coloured text <g>.
Originally posted by ClubRacer

Thanks for the answers they are exactly what I was after.

New question: are any rules broken if yellow holds its course and green misses blue by a hair (less than a hull length) without having to change course?

That's what your animated diagram showed.

The answer is:

G did not change course or take any other avoiding action.

There was no contact.

See Case 50.

B and Y did not fail to keep clear.

No rule was broken.

But less than 1 BL, means, to me, nearly one boat length, which is a lot more than a whisker.

If, on the other hand, G had changed course and protested, then Y and/or B would have broken rule 10.
Originally posted by ClubRacer

Same question again but blue and yellow are passing an anchored cruise liner which blue misses by a hair

Was it a seamanlike hair?

B is going to need to come into a protest hearing and prove that she was given less than some specific amount of space, which she needs to convince the protest committee was less than prudent seamanship required.
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